| Will the people who have made it clear on this site that they are atheist or agnostic burn in hell for all eternity? |
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Asked 3 years ago
by Chipmonk  United States |
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About
Kinda squirrely; very opinionated; not always right; not always willing to admit to being not always right. :)
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6 Points
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Nope. That would require the existence of hell. Which name, by the way, is taken from the name of the Norse goddess of the underworld--Hel--who rules over a cold and frozen place, not a hot and burning one.
Do I get to keep my wool when I get there? I should be ok, then...
Yeah, you're cool, you know where the word Hell comes from, but does that make your opinion any more accurate?
Yes. Believing that God defined hell and what it is is, while being totally ignorant of the source of the word indicates a profound ignorance.
Knowing that it is a loan word from the Norse cycle of creation myth mis-applied to a Middle Eastern idea of torment (heat is a problem there, you see, in the desert) indicates that the whole concept is most likely human in origin, unless you postulate a god that doesn't know the difference, either. that
That's why I prefer the original Greek words for Hell; Gehenna and sometimes (the kingdom of) Hades.
Still not an Aramaic word.
No, but I thought Greek was the original source language of most of the New Testament.
Yes--but not of the people or things which it is about, nor their native language. Greeks words are symbols for different concepts than Aramaic, words, as with any two languages.
I guess I don't get your point then. Maybe you can point out where I missed the boat. You are point and I am counter-point.
point - Hell (the word) is taken from a Norse Myth, not defined by God.
counter-point - Hell (in English) took the definitions from Greek. It is biblical in origin. (implied)
point - Hell is not from the Aramaic.
counter-point - Am I wrong about Greek?
point - It doesn't matter what the New Testament was written in, the New Testament Christians thought in Aramaic.
counter-point - Huh?
Yup/ You don't get the point. It goes right through the religion short-circuit without ever engaging the critical faculties. Not just you, pretty much any believer.
You're no fun today B^) I thought you wanted to have a discussion.
Which can't be done with someone who uses faith instead of thought and fact.
Your loss
Ill jump on here.
So i understand it you believe in Hades and the greek Underworld?
Nope. The New Testament is written in Greek. The original Greek for the word, Hell, as used in the English translations is mostly Gehenna (Jerusalem's garbage dump) and occasionally Hades. (when referring to Satan's home)
So I think of Hell as the constantly burning garbage dump where useless souls are discarded and destroyed.
Those that do not believe in souls as the medium of our transformation from human animals to humans with a different kind of body (spiritual body) can't believe in Hell because the only reason for hell is as a dump for those souls that are not going to be needed to go live with God. In a functional sense, it's not a punishment, just what happens if you believe differently than what the soul needs to get to live with God.
One of the reasons for the confusion is that we don't know the exceptions to the rules and we don't know, scientifically, how the process works.
God has told us that we can be a practicing Jew or a Christian and join him after death. Since God is omnipotent, He knows how the process works and what the exceptions are. So when someone asks, "Will I go to Hell if I don't believe the Christian God?", I have to say Yes but there are unknown exceptions.
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Wingnut and others, no need to respond because I already know what you are going to say.
Yes I believe those that don't believe in God will burn in hell forever. Not those that do not know any better like people in remote places like rain forests or in African villages that don't learn about God. I am referring to those that know about God and choose not to believe in him. No further explanation needed because it is just an opinion.
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[6 points] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyYour God sounds evil.
A parent sets a boundary and then allows the child to experience the natural consequences of his/her actions if they disobey is not being evil. The consequences are evil, which are imparted by satan, not God. God sent his one and only Son to die for our sins-that is NOT an evil God!
You just said he sent his only son to certain death..
As a sacrifice him to himself even!
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[2 points] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyYes.
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[1 point] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyRight.
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[3 points] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyIt is necessary for existence. Suffering is caused by evil or change. The world could not exist without constant movement. (change) The concept of good could not exist without the concept of evil.
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[2 points] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplySpeaking of whackjobs, I never said that God was doing us a favor, or that he did evil things, or that evil things are justifiable.
The lengths to which you Atheists will go to justify your belief in delusion and nonsense is really quite staggering. (to use words you understand)
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[4 points] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyIt's all written down. You don't have to take my word for it. I quoted you so that there would be no misunderstanding. Like green-eyed girl said, you remind me of Don Imus.
Re; Your God sounds evil.
That's because you know nothing about God except sound bites you've heard.
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[4 points] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyYou know less than anyone here about religion, but you get to talk.
Atheists, with very few exceptions miss certain facts about religion. That's to be expected, and in many cases, it's a good thing. Asking the questions for information or opinion can be the beginnings of wisdom.
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[2 points] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyIt's clear what you think about religion because you post at length about it. It is also evident to me that there are certain basic religious concepts that your brain does not (maybe can not) connect with.
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[2 points] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyRe: If, by "connect with", you mean "succumb to conditioning"
Nope. I mean that concepts like Faith or Heaven are not understandable by you. They don't make sense to you. You don't get the essence of them. You can't sort out what's true in religion from what's not, therefore you reject it all.
Don't say I didn't warn you about the moderating down on religious opinion...;-)
I don't arrow down religious opinions just because they're religious. People can believe what they like. I do however, arrow down stupid opinions, and some people may see that as such.
I don't recall accusing you. Out of curiosity, what is with all the Christian baiting questions? Do you really think you are about to change people's minds by ridiculing their sacred cows? Or do you just want to show how clever you are?
Just thought I'd share my opinion. It couldn't possibly be because I'm generally curious about how many people think prayer works, and so fourth?
No, its not. Try another. ;-)
I've been watching episodes of the Atheist Experience back to back for days.
LOL! That'll do it!
I was watching a (poorly done)series on the Tudors. It has been making me think alot about the way the Government had to, over a period of generations, indoctrinate people to the idea that Catholicism was bad and Popery was out. There was a great deal of resistance to the idea that the King could be the head of the church. That was no small feat, I think.
I have no idea what that is, but the Ahtiest Experience is like a call-in Atheist show, and I called in once just to show my bulletproof arguement that God exists. It's called the "arguement from trees", and it's quite simple to understand; Trees exist, therefore God exists.
They didn't have much rebuttle to that except the strangly similar arguement from pudding, arguement from cars, and arguement from pandas.
That's true, but a Christian is what I am, not just my opinion. So it just goes with the territory. They're killing people for being Christians in other countries, so I can't complain too much about being marked down.
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[1 point] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyAt what point do you decide someone has enough information to be accountable? If you hear the name "God" or "Jesus" and don't fall on your knees right away, is that your ticket to hell?
Whenever anyone tells you Jesus stories it is perfectly natural to believe every word you are told because nobody lies about Jesus. No proof is required he walked on water or turned stones into bread or fish. Jesus did it. No explanation necessary. I *know* cuz the bible tells me so.
In fact I know so strongly that I'll kill anyone who doesn't believe like me if I can convince the government to help. [viz., The Spanish Inquisition]
Re: is that your ticket to hell? ...No
First, Jesus used the word "Gahenna" - a reference to the waste dumps outside of the city of Jerusalem in the Valley of Hinnom, where all the trash was burned - carcasses among it, including those of condemned people - 'the damned'. The prodigious amount of trash from that great city meant that somewhere in Gahenna there was always a fire burning.
The Kingdom of Hell, ruled by the Evil One, as described by Dante, is really not what Jesus taught. He taught it as the place where you were thrown out and burned up with the other trash; where you are discarded as worthless.
God told us how some of us could join him in Heaven. Jesus came so that there would be an absolute way to join God in Heaven. If you are not interested in God or think the Christians or the Jews or all of God's people have it wrong, then when you are dead, your soul dies with your body. If you believe that "when you are dead, you're dead," you are.
This ---> http://www.interfaith.org/articles/jesus_hell.php is a site that does a great job describing Hell from a first century point of view. There are some conclusions of his that are probably wrong, but he has some of the best basic information I've seen.
But you're not answering the question. Where is the "believe" or "don't believe" point? IF I hear the name Jesus once in my live and don't believe am I condemned to be thrown out and burned up with the other trash?
We don't know. We can't know for someone else.
I personally believe that different people have different capacities for belief or faith. We are told that the only way to guarantee to join God after our death is to believe in him with all our heart and soul. Only God knows exactly how much "all" is. So only you and God know where the cut-off point is.
Also, according to the Bible, others have joined God that did not follow those instructions. (the Prophets to the repentant thief on the cross) The only SURE way is to declare your belief in Jesus Christ and act on that belief by repenting of your sins and becoming free of them.
You are still talking about people with the knowledge to make a decision about believing or not believing. But we were talking about the person who lives in darkest Africa and doesn't know anything about God or Jesus. If somebody comes through the village once and mentions the name "Jesus" was that his one chance? What if no one ever comes through his village and he never hears the name Jesus in his whole life? Does he go to hell automatically?
I believe that the decision to believe is not your own, but the work of the Holy Spirit. We are not able to do anything to save ourselves, but Christ has done it all for us. We are, however, able to turn away from His saving Grace, thus condemning ourselves.
Not the question. If you have never HEARD of His saving Grace, how can you be accused of turning away from it.
I realize my comment was not directly related to the question, but I was responding to your comment about making the decision to believe. Many of the comments on posted questions tend to stray away from the original question. The original question had nothing to do with villagers in remote areas, but those who have heard of Christ and have chosen not to believe (atheists and agnostics on this site)
Only if you die not believing. Your life is your time of Grace to come to the knowledge of Him. My older brother was wrestling with the whole belief issue when he took his own life. Only God knows if he is Heaven or hell. I cannot know what was in his heart at the moment of his death.
Okay, but you're missing the question, too. We're talking about the person who lives in darkest Africa and doesn't know anything about God or Jesus. If somebody comes through the village once and mentions the name "Jesus" was that his chance? What if no one ever comes through his village and he never hears the name Jesus in his whole life? Does he go to hell automatically?
The Bible says that belief in the saving Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is necessary to live Eternally, so if a person does not have that belief, they will not go to Heaven. That is why missionary work is so important.
So you're actually telling me that the Christian God of love is sending all those villagers straight to hell for all eternity not for anything they did wrong, but merely because no missionary ever showed up to spread His word to them? My, my, my... no wonder so many people think Christianity is a cruel religion.
Not my words, but the Bible's. No one is without sin, not even those villagers, and the wages of sin is death. John 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. People also think going to prison is cruel, and blame others for their wrongdoing and having to pay the consequences for their actions.
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[1 point] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyI think, "thou dost protest too much." Are you hiding something? I am curious as to why you get so riled up about Jesus Christ, and upset with those who are confessing Christians?
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[1 point] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyI don't happen to agree with you. Your comment about religion lowering intelligence is really quite ridiculous. People who have abortions kill babies, rapists kill people, gang bangers kill people, psychopaths kill people, sociopaths kill people, and some people kill people in the name of religion. Not all religions kill people.
Are you willing to share with me what you do believe-not what you don't believe?
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[1 point] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyThat is where we differ. I don't think the Bible and it's teachings are supernatural stories or fairy tales. So your measurement of intelligence is whether or not one believes in the teachings of the Bible? I really find it very difficult to believe that anyone would not believe in God, and the teachings of the Bible.
Individual quotes from professed Christians do not represent all those who believe. There are many professed Christians whose beliefs differ from mine-surrounding issues of abortion, homosexuality, death penalty, etc.
I work with children who suffer from mental health issues, and deal with educators who have a difficult time believing that the behaviors demonstrated by the students are beyond their (students) control at the time. What you are sharing about your views of Christianity is similar to the teachers' unbelief, and probably just as strong. The teachers have to listen to what I am telling them about the manifestation of the behavior and then change how they interact with the student and his/her behavior accordingly. That is an uphill battle, because the teachers just plain don't believe what I am saying to be true and continue to believe the student is bad and just trying to disrupt the class and irritate them (teacher). The only proof they have is my word, or that of the doctor, but they still resist.
Believing in humanity-do you view abortion as a woman's choice or murder? I'm just curious.
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[3 points] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyWow-calm down. No need to get your blood pressure up. Not once have I criticized you or what you believe, or don't believe. I have answered questions in a civil manner and have tried to have some dialog from you as to what you hold to be true-not to attack, but to learn. I guess you are not willing to share information. You are too confrontational.
The definition of atheist is one who denies deity, and since I do not deny (I believe in the Triune God-Father, Son and Holy Spirit), I cannot join you in being one (atheist)-sorry.
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[2 points] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyYou were the one that claimed to be an atheist in the comment prior to my last.
You may question my beliefs all you want, and I have answered your questions according to the teachings of the Bible. It is not your questions, but your responses to the answers that are confrontational (for example: I am not able to think rationally and my judgment should be questioned in all matters.
I don't think I believe in absolute nonsense, and it is that fact that seems to be so unsettling to you. Just because you are an "anti-theist" doesn't mean all will follow you. You are not even willing to share your views on issues, but very quick to use demeaning language and name calling when faced with a belief system different from your own).
Why are so hesitant to answer questions asked of you? What exactly is a humanist?
People don't get sent to prison for being born in a remote village and not ever hearing someone's name. If they did... that would be cruel, and they would certainly be able to blame others, since there was no wrongdoing. If you want to assert otherwise, please tell me (without using the Bible, since these villagers never had access to a bible) what these villagers did "wrong."
Exactly which villagers are you referring; A hypothetical set of villagers, or villagers that you have first hand knowledge of what they have and have not heard?
It should not be relevant to the conversation at hand.
If almighty God has decreed that those who never had the chance to hear His name go straight to hell for all eternity... that's the way it is, right?
Right. What is it that you believe happens to people when they die?
Why is what I believe relevant either? I was simply trying to clarify your position on what is the "inerrant" Word of God.
Let's just say that i don't believe in a cruel God who capriciously damns people to eternal punishment for "sins" that are no fault of their own.
Ok, then. I have been very willing to share, and was just curious as to what you believed.
Re: ...villagers straight to hell for all eternity not for anything they did wrong...
God promised that all humans have the right to this life here on Earth. Those that never heard of Christ, those that chose another God and those that accept no God get all that science can identify.
Believers get the bonus of Eternal life as a different kind of being, with God. Non-believers get what they believe in. That is completely fair.
Really? They get WHATEVER they believe in? So the Muslims get their 62 virgins and all that stuff? REALLY? Cool!
You have the same problem as Bible readers everywhere B^)
JWBrothers: ...get what they believe in...
plawler: ...get WHATEVER they believe in?
Notice the difference in words there. I find it ironic that the people that believe in final death at the grave think that it is unfair that they don't get the thing that they don't believe in.
Fine... change my sentence to say "what" instead of whatever. It doesn't change the meaning in the slightest... except for a little less emphasis. So youare you saying that Muslims get what they believe in?
Okay, nevermind. I read your other comment and you are saying that. This puts you directly at odds with ka59's assertions above about the "inerrant" Word of God. Can you please get together and tell us poor slobs which inerrant Word of God is actually "inerrant?"
Just because one thing is true does not mean something related is any less true. For example...
Water is wet. Hydrogen and oxygen are found naturally as gasses only. Water is made of two gasses, therefore water cannot be wet. It is a scientific contradiction.
The differences between ka59's and my statements look like contradictions to you. In most cases, there is no contradiction.
horsepucky. He says anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is condemned to eternal damnation in hell. You say people get what they believe in because of some multidimensional hoo-doo.
Those are contradictory and they are NOT reconcilable with a wet/gas explanation.
You are confusing what I believe with what the Bible says. And you are confusing what I believe with what ka59 believes. We can both be right. (see the wet/gas explanation)
Either one of us can be wrong. That doesn't make the Bible any less inerrant. It just proves that ka59 and I are not inerrant.
ka59 said that what he believes is what the Bible says. He says it is "inerrant." So what you believe is obviously wrong. ;o)
Well, that was not my understanding, but I tend to give her the benefit of the doubt.
Re: Muslims get their 62 virgins and all that stuff? REALLY? Cool!
There is a lot we don't know about dimensions outside the one we live in. We don't even know how many there are. We don't know if they all can interact. If they can, we don't know how.
It would not greatly surprise me if the Muslims got exactly what they believe, but their future is not mine.
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[1 point] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyIt appears that every one of your comments are being answered, so who is it that doesn't have a clue?
It appears that every one of your answers makes the Christian God look cruel and capricious. But hey... if that's what you want to believe, it's up to you.
I was expecting a resounding "yes" from you. Now I see you have considered this much more than most people. I like your answers because you don't condemn nonbelievers or skeptics the way most "fundie" Christians do. You are a lot more open-minded about the subject.
Thanks. I spent a lot of years asking these same type of questions. My point of view was never Atheistic, but having grown up a Methodist preacher's kid and then experiencing some extremely unfair suffering as an adult, I had some serious questions about what kind of God we worshiped. I wanted a lot of answers that nobody was providing, but have found a number of answers that I can accept (and defend) to those hard questions.
The process I went through is not particularly unusual, but it was not widespread and most Christians (my spiritual family) experienced my questions as attacks. I told myself then that I would not make the same mistake. (and hope I don't)
Do you go to church these days (in light of the fact you have much more educated points of view than most Christians)?
One reason I don't go is because most preachers modify biblical verses to serve any point they want to make, whether to dissuade people from voting for a particular candidate, to chastise the congregation for not donating enough money quickly enough to add a new wing to the church athletic facility in time for the big game.
Whose word are people supposed to take that everything taught in churches is true?
Why was God not impartial in his praises of Cain and Abel when raising vegetables is just as hard as raising sheep? Duh, no offense to ewes guys.
Re: Whose word are people supposed to take that everything taught in churches is true?
No ones. The best you can do is to see if their words are consistent with the Word of God and their actions are consistent with their words.
The bible is not consistent with the word of god, so it should be no surprise there is so much confusion.
I may regret asking this, but... What other "Word of God" are you referring to?
Just read the bible and listen to some of the nonsense that the followers of god claim to be the word of god.
I have. It's why the Catholics used to burn heretics, and Puritans shunned them.
(edit) I just reread my statement and it could easily be misread as approval of those practices. Burning at stake is illegal and both practices are unchristian, counter-productive and stupid.
Exactly and there are many more that claim to hear the word of god that is inconsistent with the bible. It makes it very hard for many non believers and believers alike to figure out what the texts actually mean. Only with some creative license do they make some sort of sense.
I was kicked out of bible classes at the age of 6, I was asking questions the pastor could not answer and got accused of disrupting the class. But what religious people need to do, regardless of their religion is to reign in the extremist, easier said then done of course.
I believe in the American system of open religion and religious tolerance. That makes it almost impossible censure people that take the Lord's name in vain by saying that their opinions are the Word of God.
Good for you and long live the freedom of speech.
When my children were younger, I would say that going to Heaven is like a bullseye. The Bible does not say how far off the bullseye we can be and still go to Heaven, so our job is to use the Word of God as our guide (the Bible). As your comment stated, we are to constantly check to see if actions/words are consistent with the Word of God.
Re: God ,,, praises ... Abel not Cain?
There is no reason given in Genesis, though the Jewish laws about sacrifice required the first and best. You could read into the account that Cain brought strictly what was required and Abel brought the very best he could provide.
It's not that you know about god and choose not to worship him/her/whatever, it's just that you don't believe in the existence of that god, and that's why you don't take it as a fact you choose to ignore.
Not necessarily. Those who have made it clear that they are atheist or agnostic are hopefully still alive. Eternity in Heaven or hell happens at death.
How do you know?
The Bible tells me so. :)
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[1 point] 3 years ago by deleted user ReplyAs I have already told you, I believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God.
Really? Inerrant, you say? So any inconsistency in the Bible would destroy your belief, then... since it could not possibly be simultaneously inerrant and inconsistent.
My question is how can you go to hell if you do not believe that there is a hell? Hell to me is a fictional place that people use to frighten others into doing, seeing, believing, and worship the way they do (in other words control others). I might have to come back and do this all over again but I am not going to a place called hell.
Just because a person doesn't believe does not mean it isn't so. I don't believe in coming back as someone/thing else, but if it is so, then that is what will happen whether I believe it now or not.
So you are a different kind of Christian than JWBrothers then. He says that people get what they believe in. I wish you Christians could get together on this "inerrant" Word of God stuff.
It makes it so confusing when everyone interprets the "inerrant" Word of God differently.
What I really said was that in my opinion, people get what they believe in. My opinion is not contradicted by anything in the Bible, but other Christians can have other opinions.
What? Not contradicted? But ka59 states that only believers in Jesus will go to heaven, so Muslims and Jews (somewhat ironic, since Jesus was a Jew) cannot possibly go to heaven according to the "inerrant" word of God.
This is related to one of the contradictions you pointed out. Jesus said that the only way to heaven is through him. There are several Old Testament prophets in heaven. This is an apparent contradiction.
I believe that Jesus was saying that the only SURE way to get to heaven is through him. His audience, facial expression and body attitude were not recorded in the Gospels. This would have been difficult to ascertain from what he said, but perfectly clear to those that were there.
I'm sorry... how can you ADD to the "inerrant" Word of God. IF he meant to say "only sure" instead of "ONLY" why didn't he say that? How do you know it was perfectly clear to those that were there? Assuming you could somehow know that... and you are correct, why did they not clarify it for the rest of us?
Because what he said was accurately recorded. As you can tell by all the talking past each other on Ask500, what you say by typing here does not always adequately express what you mean.
That's why I asked ka59 for clarification, which he kindly provided.
Those in the old testament believed in the promise of a Savior, thus believed in Jesus Christ.
BTW-I am a she, not a he.
A thousand pardons. But Old Testament aside, all Jews today are going straight to hell to burn in damnation and suffer torment for all eternity, right?
If they don't believe, yes, as will all who do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior.
You and I believe different things on that point, then. But you are in good company. Martin Luther wrote books that support your view.