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Israelite Military doesn't care for people of Gaza too and they get American Money to kill people...!
i don't say that my Government is good...no..my government shouldn't waste our money for Hamas...but it's not fair to destroy Palestinian's house!
can you prove that Hamas shoot 60 rockets per day?
We don't want Israel to be demolished but they shouldn't keep Gaza and palestinians in such a situation like that for six months without any food,power and water...!
Asking the question in regards to how many have died implies that it is casualty count that matters, and not intent.
The intent to fire rockets into Civilian areas in an effort to kill civilians is the root of the problem. Because they are ineffective does not make the attempt any less heinous.
And dropping bombs in a city will only kill bad guys? I am sure you have a point, but tell me how in your view Hamas are bad guys and Israel are good guys or is that not what you are saying?
Let me repeat, both are bad, Israel is the worst of the two.
Oviously bombing a city will lead to come civilian deaths.
The reason that Israel is the better of the two is that they do everything they can to minimize the amount of civilian casualties in their strikes. They drop pamphlets on soon to be hit areas and they call people in the houses in the soon to be hit areas in an effort to get people to leave the area.
Hamas, on the other hand, does everything that they can to maximize civilian casualties. This is demonstrated by firing rockets into strictly civilian areas, sending suicide bombers into places like dance clubs and markets, and storing their weapons caches in Mosque and heavily populated areas.
"The reason that Israel is the better of the two is that they do everything they can to minimize the amount of civilian casualties in their strikes" .. forgive my french .. this is Bull $hit
Israel have been constantly bombarding Gaza (nearly 300 Square Km) with artillery shells, missiles, and White Phosphorus
Israel uses WMD against the masses of civilians 1.5 million persons with around 54% of the population children below 13!!!!!!!!!!
not to mention women and elderly
and regarding the pamphlets part, it happened once in day 13
come on, open up your eyes, history is well documented these days, no more lies will corrupt history and those who protected the tyrant will bear their shame
This comment has been moderated down. (Show Comment)
arashad, you lie. There may be good reasons for it. You may believe what you are told. You may believe your people are justified. Your religion may require you to deny anything positive about Jews. Use any excuse you want. Every statement you utter is wrong. (BTW, The last sentence is a statement of opinion. The others are statements of fact. You often seem to get the two mixed up.)
and by the way, I have no problem with jews, I have a problem with terrorists of all backgrounds, including the ones of our concern now, terrorist jews the IDF
I'm with you arashad. They Jews shouldn't have been allowed to steal a country in the first place, but too late for that now. We just need a peaceful long term solution. I also love the way that the American thinks he's educating you, but he's obviously been blindsighted by his country's own propaganda probably more than you have.
THEY BOMBED A UN SCHOOL! Their response was completely out of proportion! It is so typical of Americans to go for going in guns blazing - we need separate states, it is the only solution.
*Ahem* The late cease-fire agreement! The number of rockets fired into israel was reduced by 98%, from around 1700 down to 37 rockets, and the few rockets weren't even fired by Hamas but independent smaller groups. Until ofcourse you broke the agreement and bombed a couple of Palestinians, but that was ok! Hamas still followed the truce(somewhat) waiting for you to keep your part of the agreement and open up the border so trade goods, medicine and food could enter gaza without being blocked by the border.
What happened? You intensified the blockade!? There was no reason what so ever for Hamas to stick to the truce any more. And as politics go hamas launched its rocket attacks during Christmas to improve its position for future cease-fire talks, of course this was the goldplate served opportunity for war eager-soon-election-time-have-to-look-tough Israeli leaders that had been waiting for an excuse to attack for months.
Because Israel is collectively punishing 1.5 million people because they used their democratic rights. Israel have ruined the economy in the area putting 45% of the citizens in Gaza under the poverty line.
Hamas is trying to improve the conditions for its people the exact same way Israel is trying to do it for theirs.
Firing rockets into civilian areas is going to improve the conditions for the Gazans? Clearly that didn't work. You know what would work, if they stopped firing rockets altogether.
Israel is "punishing" 1.5 million people because their democratically elected government has a declaration of war against them in their charter, and they are firing rockets into the country on a daily basis, even during "ceasefires".
Israel is the only country in the world that would be condemned for attacking a neighbor that has openly fired rockets into their country. They are defending themselves.
Are you batshit crazy? They tried the "stop firing rockets" option, THINGS DID NOT IMPROVE! Read my comment above up there
Israel continued attacks during "ceasefires" and hamas stopped their attacks and the amount of rockets fired was subsequently reduced by 98%
Israel is the country that have ignored the most UN resolutions in the world(the ones that USA didnt veto that is) its violating the Geneva convention, screwing over human rights and claims the Haag have no jurisdiction. No other nation would be capable of doing this without getting sanctioned.
But as soon as the Ceasefire Agreement Expires they start firing Hundreds again? That does sound like a group of people who want peace. Hamas doesn't give a shit about the Palestinian people.
From your link:
On 4 November 2008, Israeli troops raided a border area of the Gaza Strip, where the Israeli military claimed Hamas had built a tunnel which they claimed Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers. Six members of Hamas were killed.[96] Hamas considered this attack a "massive breach of the truce,"[97] and Hamas rocket attacks increased sharply in November 2008, approaching the pre-truce levels.[98]
Is your point here that Israel broke the Cease Fire agreement to stop Hamas from building a tunnel detrimental to the welfare of Israel? The building of such a tunnel effectively breaks the ceasefire and Israel would be dumb to just let something like that go because there is a "Cease Fire" agreement that week.
[1 point]1 year ago by CDogReplyEdited 1 year ago by CDog
"But as soon as the Ceasefire Agreement Expires they start firing Hundreds again?"
Yes because of the blockade, they agreed to the ceasefire because it was hurting the people, and the ceasefire did not improve the situation but decreased it thus there was no reason to continue it (haven't i already told you this?).
Oh great.. Israeli propaganda can be swallowed whole but a terrorist organisation working to improve the situation for its people is just too much?
Never mind, taking into account USA's history with terrorism i can see it being easy for Israel to make you believe this is a part of the "war on terror", you having Bush still for president doesn't help much either.
[1 point]1 year ago by MondayReplyEdited 1 year ago by Monday
This is definitely not part of the "War on Terror" and yes, a terrorist organization working for the improvement of its people is too much. We both know that Hamas priority is not saving the Palestinians. Even you have to be able to admin that.
They might see it more like "a life in the worlds largest concentration camp is not a life worth living" attitude towards it, thus continue fighting for their rights.
Or how would you feel living under such conditions?
Do you really feel that comparing Gaza to Auschwitz is an accurate comparison? Are Israeli's rounding up every Palestinian they can and burning them in ovens?
Why does Israel get all the blame for this "concentration camp". Last time I checked parts of Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt were part of Palestine. Why not rockets into those countries? Of course Egypt has actually been known to fire on Palestinians trying to get into their country, but that probably doesn't matter to you. Bad Jews... Sons of Apes and Pigs... Is that about right?
Armed Hamas militants in civilian clothes roamed the halls. Asked their function, they said it was to provide security. But there was internal bloodletting under way.
In the fourth-floor orthopedic section, a woman in her late 20s asked a militant to let her see Saleh Hajoj, her 32-year-old husband. She was turned away and left the hospital. Fifteen minutes later, Mr. Hajoj was carried out by young men pretending to transfer him to another ward. As he lay on the stretcher, he was shot in the left side of the head.
Mr. Hajoj, like five others killed at the hospital this way in 24 hours, was accused of collaboration with Israel. He had been in the central prison awaiting trial by Hamas judges; when Israel destroyed the prison on Sunday he and the others were transferred to the hospital. But their trials were short-circuited.
It was probably really a weapons cache and launching point. It's exactly the kind of building Hamas would put that sort of thing in.
That's what the UN School (from the other day)was, you know right? Report came out yesterday from residents in the area that Hamas was using that school as a base for firing rockets...
Dandan, if a arab nation imposed a sanction against you denying all trade of goods over the border/sea/air, ruining 75% of your businesses in the first 3 weeks, what do you think your nation would do?
Do you know WHY Israel refuse to let Palestinians work inside Israel ?
Since Hamas rule - more and more Hamas men terrorize Israel ( bombs , suicide bombs ,murder with hot and cold arms and even with cars buses and tractors .)
They know it will lead to the closing of the borders for all other Palestinians .. but they don't care.
I used to work beside many Palestinians that expressed their frustration to me.
They want Hamas to be destroyed by IDF !!
They only want to live their simple life..
Hamas will do anything Iran says .. but they (Hamas) do it for religious reasons . Iran is Using them exploiting their poor economic situation for its own Political(!) reasons..
Open you eyes ! use your reason .
Do you really think a the jewish people who suffered throughout history will hurt the Gazans with no reason ..
I was in the army . I saw first hand - hardcore Islamic centers brainwash children to hate Israel .
"Do you know WHY Israel refuse to let Palestinians work inside Israel ?"
I can make an assumption but then again, i was not talking about palestinians working in israel, i was talking about palestinians not being able to work in Gaza because the industries there can't import raw material or export finished goods because of you guys, the UN had to stop building schools simply because they could not get cement into the area..
"more and more Hamas men terrorize Israel"
Because you force them into the situation.
"They want Hamas to be destroyed by IDF !!"
Seeing as they got the majority votes in a election.. I doubt its the case.
"They only want to live their simple life.."
You are right there
"Hamas will do anything Iran says"
Israel will do anything USA says.. but they(Israel) does it for religious reasons (holy land etc) - USA is exploiting you (not sure why but) do you think they give you all that money just to be nice to you? USA's own political(!) reasons is behind it..
Open you eyes ! use your reason dandan .
Do you really think killing civilians in Gaza is going to give you any better protection? Why is your leadership using well known ineffective and even to the extent counter-productive means against Hamas and the entire people of Gaza? Even right now as we speak the the measures you have taken does not have the desired effect and is forcing people straight into the hands of extremists yet you relentlessly continue with it having the only result being death and destruction!
Listen to reason, you are doing more harm then good
[1 point]1 year ago by MondayReplyEdited 1 year ago by Monday
"Do you really think a jewish people who suffered throughout history will hurt Gazans with no reason" er yes! A Jewish people who went in and stole someone elses country in the first place. TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT! give them some of their land back asap and give west jeruselam back to the west bank!
There is a long history of Islam taking over and subjugating people and places. The Jews (who were there first) get some of their Holy land back and it's the biggest crime ever. LOL
Ask yourself where should they be shooting from and also who kills more women and children. Even to you it must be clear who is committing the bigger crimes against humanity. You want support and sympathy from reasonable people be reasonable in your actions and reactions. For every Israeli that is killed 80 Palestinians are killed
Ask yourself how much do Israel pay your soldiers every year. Stop the killing abide by the UN resolutions and the world opinion will swing your way again.
And for those trying to destroy Israel, you are equally wrong!
So, because Israel is superior Militarily, they are in the wrong?
If Hamas wasn't rocketing Israel, Palestinian death counts would be much lower. But they are.
I don't see how anyone can be against Israel's right to wipe Hamas out. Civilians get killed in Military actions, at least Israel tries to minimize civilian losses.
Would Hamas be right if they killed 80 Israelis for every Palestinian? Palestinians got that name because they came from a place called Palestine (now called Israel) Maybe you would like to split your state in half state just so that Jews (or any other religious group) can have their religious state. I am sure you would welcome them with open arms as they kick the people out of their homes ..... not!
So murdering 6 million Jews is no worse then killing a single Jew? What the Nazis did was shocking you might call it ridiculous but in my mind it was pure evil.
If some Indian tribe kicked you out of your home you would be "No need to fight this, 300 years ago they owned this land, they are right to take it" Are claiming that the Palestinian refuge's have no right to get their homes back?
I am not claiming that they don't have a case, but the case of Israel took our land is weak at best.
I am not sure how you pulled the Holocaust into this though. My point was that Israel being more efficient in their war does not make them bad. Make no mistake, if Hamas could kill every single Jew on the planet they would do it. Israel on the other hand doesn't want to kill everyone, they just want to be left alone.
The Nazi's were more efficient at killing Jews and that does not make them bad? What would it take for you to call some one bad?
If Israel wants to be left alone, maybe they should go back to the lines established by the UN resolutions? It won't solve the problem but it would show they do care about international relations.
It's an entirely different situation. Drawing a comparison from the Holocaust to the current situation in Gaza is thin at best.
The Nazis were rounding up Jew and systematically killing them. Israel has launched a military action against a society that wishes them demolished and has attacked them continually for years.
Moving the lines back wouldn't solve anything. They are strategically stronger where they are now.
Like I said, every death is wrong, regardless of why the killing is done, the Palestinians are wrong for wanting to take their country back by force, the Israelis are wrong for dropping bombs in one of the most densely populated cities in the world.
Israel does not want to abide by international rules and I call that wrong. Tough titties if you don't like that.
Give Palestine full independence, as they deserve. Really they deserve the whole country, but too late now. I think if that happens you'll find your country with a lot more sympathy if you still do get any rocket attacks
I don't think Jews are the sons of pigs. I just think that Muslims have equal rights to them. And your claims that the Jews owned the last 1000s of years ago are pointless because so did the Muslims, and for a while so did the Christians. What matters is recent history that still effects the world. And a two party state is the only solution to the current problems, not blowing everyone to pieces.
Muslims didn't own the land "1000s of years ago". There were no Muslims more than 1200-1300 years ago.
A 2 state solution will never work. Death to the Jews is a core tenement of the the Islamic Faith, so they can never have peace with them until thee is a reformation of Islamic Ideology. There cannot be a reformation of Islamic ideology, because to suggest anything against the Koran is blasphemy, and blasphemy is punishable by death.
2 State solution sounds great, but it will never work the way you think that it will. The only thing that will ensure lasting peace in the region is the complete and utter destruction of Israel and the Jews.
Again, a simple misunderstanding. Death to Jews is not a key part of Islamic faith, it is a more extreme part such as anti-homosexual aspects of christianity. I know a lot of muslims who completely disregard this part of their holy text on principle. Just as most Christians disregard the anti-homosexual parts of the bible.
A common misunderstanding shared by Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, the Palestinian people (who elected Hamas to represent them), and countless other followers, and imams, of the Muslim faith.
the Palestinian people is a little harsh - many of them do not have that belief. Terrorist groups however, I will give you. But maybe they won't care so much, and won't get voted into power if they wern't seen as the only option to palestinians in an attempt to self-determinate
The problem here is that you assume only "Terrorist" groups feel this way. It isn't random people on the street, it's leaders in the Muslim world. Top Imams, and government officials. (Iran for example)
I check all your replies, You don't strike me as unreasonable. I am sure it hurts you as much as it hurts me to see the children suffering on either side of the conflict.
No, I think he has his eyes open and is scared of the Palestinians and the Arab world. The Jews were brutally prosecuted under Nazi Germany (as were homosexuals and gypsies). That does not give Israel the right to do that to others though. If change is going to happen then the change will also have to come by all the players in the region including the dominant player. This change has to come from reasoning, not by the gun. I find Israelis in general far more reasonable in their discussions on this subject then the conservatives in the USA. At least more aware of the facts. I can also understand why Jordanians are scared as some extremists in Israel are looking to absorb Jordan into a greater Israel.
As a Jordanian, I am not scared and I will never be scared from Israel because I believe that my king & my people will never bend down to Israel or to anyone else.
[2 points]1 year ago by BaNaWillReplyEdited 1 year ago by BaNaWill
Because they are surrounded by lands inhabited by people who have based their entire society and law structure upon a book and belief system that calls for the complete destruction of the Jews?
Do you know why Muslims hate Jews? because 70 years ago after the world war II they captured their lands...i don't know if it is true but this is what i've heard and if it is true it's a good reason to hate them! it's been 4 years that Mr ahmadinejad is sending money for Palestinians...but i guess it is more than 60 years that isreal is being coverd by USA...!
They captured their lands? The UN formed the State of Israel.
Ahmadinejad doesn't really give a shit about the Palestinians. He just likes the negative press against Israel.
Are you saying that the Koran and the Hadith comdemnations of Jews isn't the main reason that Muslims hate them? It's all because they got the Palestinian's land?
Is it your opinion that prior to the forming of the state of Israel Muslims did not hate Jews?
[1 point]1 year ago by CDogReplyEdited 1 year ago by CDog
yes...Koran never said to kill Jews...Muslims know Mosa the prophet of jews...they respect him as a prophet...all Koran says is that Muslims should defend and only defend themself if a stranger attack them...and it doesn't matter if that stranger is Jews,Muslim,christian or any thing...! that's why iranians Hated Saddam Hussain...he called himself Muslim but he (again under the cover of USA) attacked us and we defended and we killed Iraqi soldiers because they wanted to capture our land!
Be sure that if Jews wouldn't capture their lands Muslims wouldn't hate them or trying to kill them...!
[1 point]1 year ago by saeedReplyEdited 1 year ago by saeed
In the Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad, he said, "Judgment day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims will kill the Jews, and then the Jews will hide behind stones or trees, and the stone or the tree will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him - except for the Gharqad, which is a tree of the Jews."
This seems pretty clear. This is from the Prophet Muhammad. Last time I checked he was the perfect Muslim to be emulated in life. Are you saying that he doesn't mean what it certainly sounds like he means. Or are you doubting the authenticity of the Hadith?
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
That totally sounds like Muslims and Jews would be getting along if not for the State of Israel.
The Koran says a hell of a lot more than "Muslims should defend and only defend themself if a stranger attack them". I have read it, it's pretty clear what should happen to non believers. Here is one Sura:
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” (Koran 9:29).
[1 point]1 year ago by CDogReplyEdited 1 year ago by CDog
i really do doubt the authenticity of the Hadith!!!!!!! I've never heard from any where that Mohammad said these words...! about Koran i couldn't open the link u gave me but i myself never read any where in QorAn to say such things...i even read somwehere that KorAn said never try to fight with other poeple of other religions unless they tried to hurt u...But there are lots of prediction of future in QorAn too and maybe this is one of them!
The Sura numbers are right there, 5:51 and 9:29. Just open up your Koran and read them.
Here is 5:51 from the USC Koran translations, in 3 major translations:005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
Here is 9:29
009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
It says the People of book are friend...! this is the point...! poeple of book contanis Jews and christians...! this one is for a special situation and that is when you were under attack by them...!
9:29 is pretty clearly saying to either fight, convert, or dhimmify the those who do not believe in Allah.
5:51 is pretty clear in what it says as well.
As is the Hadith from Bukhari. You can try and quantify if you want, but you are grasping at straws. There is a long history of the Muslim religion not being kind to infidels and enforcing the Jizya tax.
Also, "being attacked" is very easily gotten around as you could say that the Western society is "attacking" the Muslim society by spreading it's way of life, which is pretty much incompatible with Sharia law.
Christians are not that kind to Jews (or any other religion) either The Father of the protestant church wrote a paper titled "On the Jews and Their Lies"
The bible is also filled with murder those that do not believe;
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Does pointing out that other groups are bad make one group better? Kind of like "Well everyone is beating up old people, so beating up old people is OK".
Fair Enough. I use intent as my measuring stick. If Hamas was capable, they would kill every Jew in Israel. Man, Woman, or Child. At least Israel doesn't want to do that to the Palestinians. (Because if they did want to, they could.)
I think it is funny that you claim the Koran makes it impossible for Muslims to look at Christians and Jews in a reasonable manner, but do not think the bible does the same or worse. If most Christians can get by those parts in the bible why do you assume followers of other religions can not? You are measuring with two different yardsticks.
The reason I assume followers of Islam cannot is because the Bible is fundamentally different from the Koran. One is an interpretation of messages and stories from God written by man, and the other is a book written by God himself.
Former Muslim Ayaan Hirsi Ali thought the same thing until 9/11. Then she heard the things that Al Qaeda was saying, and how they were justifying the things they do with verses from the Koran. Ayaan at first thought they must be lying, but then she started actually reading the Koran as opposed to just memorizing it by rote. And she looked up the verses that Al Qaeda was citing. She then saw that they spoke the truth, everything they did was justified in the Koran, and she renounced Islam. You can read all about her realization in "Infidel". You can also read Ibn Warraqs "Why I am not a Muslim" to learn the actual truth behind Islam's religion,
No devout Muslim (I'm assuming you are Muslim) can look at Israel and the Jews in a completely reasonable manner. The Koran/hadith more or less make the impossible. You cannot see it through an eye not tainted by your holy books.
In the Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad, he said, "Judgment day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims will kill the Jews, and then the Jews will hide behind stones or trees, and the stone or the tree will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him - except for the Gharqad, which is a tree of the Jews."
[1 point]1 year ago by CDogReplyEdited 1 year ago by CDog
I actually don't understand a word of what you said because am NOT a muslim. Am a christian Jordanian girl. All what is moving me is the injustice that am seeing.
Its sad how you always predict that each defender is an untruthful Muslim.
Anyways, I hope that you will judge with your humanity and not your hatred toward any religion.
[3 points]1 year ago by BaNaWillReplyEdited 1 year ago by BaNaWill
Fair enough, we just see different injustices. I see Hamas firing rockets at Civilians, hiding weapons caches in Mosques, and sending Suicide Bombers to Dance clubs as the biggest problems. You see Israel attempting to stop them from doing that as the problem.
Religions: Muslim (Sunni) 94%, Christian 5% (majority Greek Orthodox, but some Greek and Roman Catholics, Syrian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, and Protestant denominations), other 1% (several small Shi'a Muslim and Druze populations) (2001 est.)
19-1 that I was right. Seems like a reasonable conclusion to jump to.
Seemed like that at the time eh? Interesting thing is that we have a Jordanian Christian condemning the Israeli attitude towards Palestinians. That is quite remarkable specially that it is only 27 years after the Sabra and Shatila massacres.
It's not remarkable at all. She has Jordanian Media coverage which is no doubt very biased against Jews and Israel. It probably completely failed to mention the Palestinians that Hamas executed in the street the other day as "traitors".
It's funny how you blame the media for my opinion or maybe for all who are against you, I will not get affected by media because I know that at the end it's all politics and interests. I will only be affected by the truth.
As well, you are predicting that am only watching Arab media and get brain washed by others!! Wake up, we are living in the same world you are!! We are all well educated & we all have satellites, internet and we watch cnn, bbc,.... so stop giving excuses. Maybe my life is more open than yours!!!
Am not with anyone am with the civilians that are dying and the world is watching.
[2 points]1 year ago by BaNaWillReplyEdited 1 year ago by BaNaWill
So you know the truth, but you don't get it from the Media. Are you in Israel, or Palestine? The only person actually in the thick of it in this thread clearly agrees with Israel. Everyone else has nothing but Media to go with. The world always wants to report on what Israel is doing. Did you see the report on the Palestinians that Hamas massacred as traitors in the street the other day? Probably not. You know why, because the media doesn't want to report that, it isn't nearly as enticing as big bad Israel picking on the Palestinians.
It was stupid and irresponsible for the US to allow it as well. In some cases reporters have revealed strategic information. War is ugly, that's just a fact.
One difference is that the US is so powerful that they can weather some more bad press. Israel lets in some reporters and they die (either by their hand, or Hamas') and it makes front page news in most countries.
We come across a local family in one of the buildings. Grandparents, a few young parents, some children and a few toddlers. Sitting on a rug, their legs are covered in blankets and two soldiers are standing guard nearby. "What about them?" I ask. "They're free to go if they want to, but they don't want to," said Eilon Perry, Givati's operations officer. "They informed us they would be staying in the house and we have no choice but to accept that."
The family suddenly notices the cameras, and immediately, the expression on their faces changes. "We have no food," they say in Arabic, as one of the youngsters suggests we interview him in English about their plight. Givati troops are extremely concerned about being portrayed as abusing innocent civilians. Perry points to a stack of canned goods, water bottles and other provisions. "We provided some of that and they cook and eat quite well," he said. The Palestinians seem to understand him and one of them smiles. It's a war – they had to try.
Of course it is, but not as much as Hamas TV, or Al Jazeera are against the Jews. Israel gets bashed by a good portion of our media. They get based by all Islamic Media.
hey Dandan...i really don't know what to say...maybe it's because my english is not very good...but i hope u and i can chat with each other...maybe after my exams get over....because i'm too busy these days with the exams...:-D
Germany
I am from Israel and will answer any serious question on the subject .
Ask yourself : should my country fight back after daily rocket attacks (around 60 a day)?
Israel moved out of gaza ,thinking peace will be on the agenda.. but they want Israel to be demolished.
Israel moved out of south Lebanon, thinking peace will be on the agenda.. but they still shoot rockets on us.
you all watch the News and see the horrific images..
ask yourself - why a group of militants shoot rockets from behind a UN school area .. ??
they (Hamas) - care not for the Gaza people but for the Iranian money they will get (7K$) for every Israeli death .
Israelite Military doesn't care for people of Gaza too and they get American Money to kill people...!
i don't say that my Government is good...no..my government shouldn't waste our money for Hamas...but it's not fair to destroy Palestinian's house!
can you prove that Hamas shoot 60 rockets per day?
We don't want Israel to be demolished but they shouldn't keep Gaza and palestinians in such a situation like that for six months without any food,power and water...!
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[1 point] 1 year ago by deleted user ReplyBut there was only one day Hamas shot 60 rockets.
They are around 30-15 a day now i think.
60 rockets in average per day.
more then 2000 rockets (!!) in the past two years.
about 1200 of them to the closest city (Sderot).
This is an exact count !
Israel tried every other way other then war.. up to now.
How many people have been killed by those rockets?
Because they are bad shots does not excuse the act.
If you read what I have been saying elsewhere you will find that I said that I do not condone those rockets either.
Asking the question in regards to how many have died implies that it is casualty count that matters, and not intent.
The intent to fire rockets into Civilian areas in an effort to kill civilians is the root of the problem. Because they are ineffective does not make the attempt any less heinous.
And dropping bombs in a city will only kill bad guys? I am sure you have a point, but tell me how in your view Hamas are bad guys and Israel are good guys or is that not what you are saying?
Let me repeat, both are bad, Israel is the worst of the two.
Oviously bombing a city will lead to come civilian deaths.
The reason that Israel is the better of the two is that they do everything they can to minimize the amount of civilian casualties in their strikes. They drop pamphlets on soon to be hit areas and they call people in the houses in the soon to be hit areas in an effort to get people to leave the area.
Hamas, on the other hand, does everything that they can to maximize civilian casualties. This is demonstrated by firing rockets into strictly civilian areas, sending suicide bombers into places like dance clubs and markets, and storing their weapons caches in Mosque and heavily populated areas.
"The reason that Israel is the better of the two is that they do everything they can to minimize the amount of civilian casualties in their strikes" .. forgive my french .. this is Bull $hit
Israel have been constantly bombarding Gaza (nearly 300 Square Km) with artillery shells, missiles, and White Phosphorus
Israel uses WMD against the masses of civilians 1.5 million persons with around 54% of the population children below 13!!!!!!!!!!
not to mention women and elderly
and regarding the pamphlets part, it happened once in day 13
come on, open up your eyes, history is well documented these days, no more lies will corrupt history and those who protected the tyrant will bear their shame
This comment has been moderated down. (Show Comment)
arashad, you lie. There may be good reasons for it. You may believe what you are told. You may believe your people are justified. Your religion may require you to deny anything positive about Jews. Use any excuse you want. Every statement you utter is wrong. (BTW, The last sentence is a statement of opinion. The others are statements of fact. You often seem to get the two mixed up.)
where do you think I lied?
and by the way, I have no problem with jews, I have a problem with terrorists of all backgrounds, including the ones of our concern now, terrorist jews the IDF
I'm with you arashad. They Jews shouldn't have been allowed to steal a country in the first place, but too late for that now. We just need a peaceful long term solution. I also love the way that the American thinks he's educating you, but he's obviously been blindsighted by his country's own propaganda probably more than you have.
THEY BOMBED A UN SCHOOL! Their response was completely out of proportion! It is so typical of Americans to go for going in guns blazing - we need separate states, it is the only solution.
Nor does firing them warrant such an out of proportion response. What is needed is the two state solution ASAP
Hamas won't allow it.
"Israel tried every other way other then war"
*Ahem* The late cease-fire agreement! The number of rockets fired into israel was reduced by 98%, from around 1700 down to 37 rockets, and the few rockets weren't even fired by Hamas but independent smaller groups. Until ofcourse you broke the agreement and bombed a couple of Palestinians, but that was ok! Hamas still followed the truce(somewhat) waiting for you to keep your part of the agreement and open up the border so trade goods, medicine and food could enter gaza without being blocked by the border.
What happened? You intensified the blockade!? There was no reason what so ever for Hamas to stick to the truce any more. And as politics go hamas launched its rocket attacks during Christmas to improve its position for future cease-fire talks, of course this was the goldplate served opportunity for war eager-soon-election-time-have-to-look-tough Israeli leaders that had been waiting for an excuse to attack for months.
"Hamas fired rockets during Christmas to improve it's position for future Cease Fire talks"
How can you even type this and feel like Hamas is in the right.
Because Israel is collectively punishing 1.5 million people because they used their democratic rights. Israel have ruined the economy in the area putting 45% of the citizens in Gaza under the poverty line.
Hamas is trying to improve the conditions for its people the exact same way Israel is trying to do it for theirs.
Firing rockets into civilian areas is going to improve the conditions for the Gazans? Clearly that didn't work. You know what would work, if they stopped firing rockets altogether.
Israel is "punishing" 1.5 million people because their democratically elected government has a declaration of war against them in their charter, and they are firing rockets into the country on a daily basis, even during "ceasefires".
Israel is the only country in the world that would be condemned for attacking a neighbor that has openly fired rockets into their country. They are defending themselves.
Are you batshit crazy? They tried the "stop firing rockets" option, THINGS DID NOT IMPROVE! Read my comment above up there
Israel continued attacks during "ceasefires" and hamas stopped their attacks and the amount of rockets fired was subsequently reduced by 98%
Israel is the country that have ignored the most UN resolutions in the world(the ones that USA didnt veto that is) its violating the Geneva convention, screwing over human rights and claims the Haag have no jurisdiction. No other nation would be capable of doing this without getting sanctioned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008
I guess by stop, you mean reduce. Of course I think they stopped firing because they were restocking.
As for the UN, like every resolution the UN makes is condemning Israel. The UN is almost completely dominated by the OIC and it's allies.
By stop i mean Hamas stopped the attacks and independent smaller groups of militant palestinians fired a total of 37 rockets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932009_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#2008_cease-fire
There is a reason for why the UN is condemning Israel, not for who is right but for what is right.
But as soon as the Ceasefire Agreement Expires they start firing Hundreds again? That does sound like a group of people who want peace. Hamas doesn't give a shit about the Palestinian people.
From your link:
On 4 November 2008, Israeli troops raided a border area of the Gaza Strip, where the Israeli military claimed Hamas had built a tunnel which they claimed Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers. Six members of Hamas were killed.[96] Hamas considered this attack a "massive breach of the truce,"[97] and Hamas rocket attacks increased sharply in November 2008, approaching the pre-truce levels.[98]
Is your point here that Israel broke the Cease Fire agreement to stop Hamas from building a tunnel detrimental to the welfare of Israel? The building of such a tunnel effectively breaks the ceasefire and Israel would be dumb to just let something like that go because there is a "Cease Fire" agreement that week.
"But as soon as the Ceasefire Agreement Expires they start firing Hundreds again?"
Yes because of the blockade, they agreed to the ceasefire because it was hurting the people, and the ceasefire did not improve the situation but decreased it thus there was no reason to continue it (haven't i already told you this?).
You certainly keep spouting it, I just don't buy it.
Oh great.. Israeli propaganda can be swallowed whole but a terrorist organisation working to improve the situation for its people is just too much?
Never mind, taking into account USA's history with terrorism i can see it being easy for Israel to make you believe this is a part of the "war on terror", you having Bush still for president doesn't help much either.
This is definitely not part of the "War on Terror" and yes, a terrorist organization working for the improvement of its people is too much. We both know that Hamas priority is not saving the Palestinians. Even you have to be able to admin that.
They might see it more like "a life in the worlds largest concentration camp is not a life worth living" attitude towards it, thus continue fighting for their rights.
Or how would you feel living under such conditions?
Do you really feel that comparing Gaza to Auschwitz is an accurate comparison? Are Israeli's rounding up every Palestinian they can and burning them in ovens?
Why does Israel get all the blame for this "concentration camp". Last time I checked parts of Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt were part of Palestine. Why not rockets into those countries? Of course Egypt has actually been known to fire on Palestinians trying to get into their country, but that probably doesn't matter to you. Bad Jews... Sons of Apes and Pigs... Is that about right?
No not really but i felt like quoting the pope for once.
I think its about the jerusalem part or something?
Sons of Apes and Pigs? Where does that stem from?
It's in a lot of the shows on Hamas' puts on television, including their Kid shows.
Here is a little of Hamas helping the Palestinians:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123066366430243153.html#
Armed Hamas militants in civilian clothes roamed the halls. Asked their function, they said it was to provide security. But there was internal bloodletting under way.
In the fourth-floor orthopedic section, a woman in her late 20s asked a militant to let her see Saleh Hajoj, her 32-year-old husband. She was turned away and left the hospital. Fifteen minutes later, Mr. Hajoj was carried out by young men pretending to transfer him to another ward. As he lay on the stretcher, he was shot in the left side of the head.
Mr. Hajoj, like five others killed at the hospital this way in 24 hours, was accused of collaboration with Israel. He had been in the central prison awaiting trial by Hamas judges; when Israel destroyed the prison on Sunday he and the others were transferred to the hospital. But their trials were short-circuited.
They bombed a prison..?
It was probably really a weapons cache and launching point. It's exactly the kind of building Hamas would put that sort of thing in.
That's what the UN School (from the other day)was, you know right? Report came out yesterday from residents in the area that Hamas was using that school as a base for firing rockets...
I think bombing a prison because the prison guards is carrying side-arms might be over the top.
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[2 points] 1 year ago by deleted user Replyyep
Yep two injured and a room messed up. They also showed Gaza with whole apartment blocks blown to peaces.
Dear Saeed .
please check my reply to Monday .
I wish we could chat more .
I'm sure we can agree on lots of issues.
Dandan, if a arab nation imposed a sanction against you denying all trade of goods over the border/sea/air, ruining 75% of your businesses in the first 3 weeks, what do you think your nation would do?
Do you know WHY Israel refuse to let Palestinians work inside Israel ?
Since Hamas rule - more and more Hamas men terrorize Israel ( bombs , suicide bombs ,murder with hot and cold arms and even with cars buses and tractors .)
They know it will lead to the closing of the borders for all other Palestinians .. but they don't care.
I used to work beside many Palestinians that expressed their frustration to me.
They want Hamas to be destroyed by IDF !!
They only want to live their simple life..
Hamas will do anything Iran says .. but they (Hamas) do it for religious reasons . Iran is Using them exploiting their poor economic situation for its own Political(!) reasons..
Open you eyes ! use your reason .
Do you really think a the jewish people who suffered throughout history will hurt the Gazans with no reason ..
I was in the army . I saw first hand - hardcore Islamic centers brainwash children to hate Israel .
just watch youtube for hamas kids ..
Open your eyes. listen to your reason ..
Surely you are not saying that Hamas is the only bad guy here? Israel makes Hamas look like the nice guy (and I know they are not)
"Do you know WHY Israel refuse to let Palestinians work inside Israel ?"
I can make an assumption but then again, i was not talking about palestinians working in israel, i was talking about palestinians not being able to work in Gaza because the industries there can't import raw material or export finished goods because of you guys, the UN had to stop building schools simply because they could not get cement into the area..
"more and more Hamas men terrorize Israel"
Because you force them into the situation.
"They want Hamas to be destroyed by IDF !!"
Seeing as they got the majority votes in a election.. I doubt its the case.
"They only want to live their simple life.."
You are right there
"Hamas will do anything Iran says"
Israel will do anything USA says.. but they(Israel) does it for religious reasons (holy land etc) - USA is exploiting you (not sure why but) do you think they give you all that money just to be nice to you? USA's own political(!) reasons is behind it..
Open you eyes ! use your reason dandan .
Do you really think killing civilians in Gaza is going to give you any better protection? Why is your leadership using well known ineffective and even to the extent counter-productive means against Hamas and the entire people of Gaza? Even right now as we speak the the measures you have taken does not have the desired effect and is forcing people straight into the hands of extremists yet you relentlessly continue with it having the only result being death and destruction!
Listen to reason, you are doing more harm then good
"Do you really think a jewish people who suffered throughout history will hurt Gazans with no reason" er yes! A Jewish people who went in and stole someone elses country in the first place. TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT! give them some of their land back asap and give west jeruselam back to the west bank!
There is a long history of Islam taking over and subjugating people and places. The Jews (who were there first) get some of their Holy land back and it's the biggest crime ever. LOL
Ask yourself where should they be shooting from and also who kills more women and children. Even to you it must be clear who is committing the bigger crimes against humanity. You want support and sympathy from reasonable people be reasonable in your actions and reactions. For every Israeli that is killed 80 Palestinians are killed
Ask yourself how much do Israel pay your soldiers every year. Stop the killing abide by the UN resolutions and the world opinion will swing your way again.
And for those trying to destroy Israel, you are equally wrong!
So, because Israel is superior Militarily, they are in the wrong?
If Hamas wasn't rocketing Israel, Palestinian death counts would be much lower. But they are.
I don't see how anyone can be against Israel's right to wipe Hamas out. Civilians get killed in Military actions, at least Israel tries to minimize civilian losses.
Would Hamas be right if they killed 80 Israelis for every Palestinian? Palestinians got that name because they came from a place called Palestine (now called Israel) Maybe you would like to split your state in half state just so that Jews (or any other religious group) can have their religious state. I am sure you would welcome them with open arms as they kick the people out of their homes ..... not!
Casualty proportions is a ridiculous concept to measure matters of war. Completely ridiculous.
There were Jews there in the late BCE, and throughout the early CE. How far back does one have to go to have a "right" to this land?
So murdering 6 million Jews is no worse then killing a single Jew? What the Nazis did was shocking you might call it ridiculous but in my mind it was pure evil.
If some Indian tribe kicked you out of your home you would be "No need to fight this, 300 years ago they owned this land, they are right to take it" Are claiming that the Palestinian refuge's have no right to get their homes back?
I am not claiming that they don't have a case, but the case of Israel took our land is weak at best.
I am not sure how you pulled the Holocaust into this though. My point was that Israel being more efficient in their war does not make them bad. Make no mistake, if Hamas could kill every single Jew on the planet they would do it. Israel on the other hand doesn't want to kill everyone, they just want to be left alone.
The Nazi's were more efficient at killing Jews and that does not make them bad? What would it take for you to call some one bad?
If Israel wants to be left alone, maybe they should go back to the lines established by the UN resolutions? It won't solve the problem but it would show they do care about international relations.
It's an entirely different situation. Drawing a comparison from the Holocaust to the current situation in Gaza is thin at best.
The Nazis were rounding up Jew and systematically killing them. Israel has launched a military action against a society that wishes them demolished and has attacked them continually for years.
Moving the lines back wouldn't solve anything. They are strategically stronger where they are now.
Like I said, every death is wrong, regardless of why the killing is done, the Palestinians are wrong for wanting to take their country back by force, the Israelis are wrong for dropping bombs in one of the most densely populated cities in the world.
Israel does not want to abide by international rules and I call that wrong. Tough titties if you don't like that.
Do you not know just war theory at all? Oh yes, your american, of course not. None have you have a clue about proportionality, do you?
Give Palestine full independence, as they deserve. Really they deserve the whole country, but too late now. I think if that happens you'll find your country with a lot more sympathy if you still do get any rocket attacks
Why don't you just say what you really think? Jews are the sons of Apes and Pigs and should be wiped out.
I don't think Jews are the sons of pigs. I just think that Muslims have equal rights to them. And your claims that the Jews owned the last 1000s of years ago are pointless because so did the Muslims, and for a while so did the Christians. What matters is recent history that still effects the world. And a two party state is the only solution to the current problems, not blowing everyone to pieces.
Muslims didn't own the land "1000s of years ago". There were no Muslims more than 1200-1300 years ago.
A 2 state solution will never work. Death to the Jews is a core tenement of the the Islamic Faith, so they can never have peace with them until thee is a reformation of Islamic Ideology. There cannot be a reformation of Islamic ideology, because to suggest anything against the Koran is blasphemy, and blasphemy is punishable by death.
2 State solution sounds great, but it will never work the way you think that it will. The only thing that will ensure lasting peace in the region is the complete and utter destruction of Israel and the Jews.
Again, a simple misunderstanding. Death to Jews is not a key part of Islamic faith, it is a more extreme part such as anti-homosexual aspects of christianity. I know a lot of muslims who completely disregard this part of their holy text on principle. Just as most Christians disregard the anti-homosexual parts of the bible.
A common misunderstanding shared by Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, the Palestinian people (who elected Hamas to represent them), and countless other followers, and imams, of the Muslim faith.
Common enough to be true of millions of people.
the Palestinian people is a little harsh - many of them do not have that belief. Terrorist groups however, I will give you. But maybe they won't care so much, and won't get voted into power if they wern't seen as the only option to palestinians in an attempt to self-determinate
The problem here is that you assume only "Terrorist" groups feel this way. It isn't random people on the street, it's leaders in the Muslim world. Top Imams, and government officials. (Iran for example)
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[4 points] 1 year ago by deleted user ReplyBoth are guilty. (But Israel is the worst offender of the two)
Please check my reply to Monday .
I check all your replies, You don't strike me as unreasonable. I am sure it hurts you as much as it hurts me to see the children suffering on either side of the conflict.
I guess it does not hurt him!!!!!! Because dandan was brainwashed by his parents to hate Palestinians.
"Open your eyes. listen to your reason" and this is exactly what I am doing, right???????
No, I think he has his eyes open and is scared of the Palestinians and the Arab world. The Jews were brutally prosecuted under Nazi Germany (as were homosexuals and gypsies). That does not give Israel the right to do that to others though. If change is going to happen then the change will also have to come by all the players in the region including the dominant player. This change has to come from reasoning, not by the gun. I find Israelis in general far more reasonable in their discussions on this subject then the conservatives in the USA. At least more aware of the facts. I can also understand why Jordanians are scared as some extremists in Israel are looking to absorb Jordan into a greater Israel.
As a Jordanian, I am not scared and I will never be scared from Israel because I believe that my king & my people will never bend down to Israel or to anyone else.
Well, I sure hate to see any one suffer.
Don't attack Israel and you don't have anything to worry about. Attack them, and they will respond.
BULLSHIT!
When did Israel attack someone without cause? They are in a constant state of war. Every single one of their neighbors hates them.
I wonder why.....
Because they are surrounded by lands inhabited by people who have based their entire society and law structure upon a book and belief system that calls for the complete destruction of the Jews?
Do you know why Muslims hate Jews? because 70 years ago after the world war II they captured their lands...i don't know if it is true but this is what i've heard and if it is true it's a good reason to hate them! it's been 4 years that Mr ahmadinejad is sending money for Palestinians...but i guess it is more than 60 years that isreal is being coverd by USA...!
They captured their lands? The UN formed the State of Israel.
Ahmadinejad doesn't really give a shit about the Palestinians. He just likes the negative press against Israel.
Are you saying that the Koran and the Hadith comdemnations of Jews isn't the main reason that Muslims hate them? It's all because they got the Palestinian's land?
Is it your opinion that prior to the forming of the state of Israel Muslims did not hate Jews?
yes...Koran never said to kill Jews...Muslims know Mosa the prophet of jews...they respect him as a prophet...all Koran says is that Muslims should defend and only defend themself if a stranger attack them...and it doesn't matter if that stranger is Jews,Muslim,christian or any thing...! that's why iranians Hated Saddam Hussain...he called himself Muslim but he (again under the cover of USA) attacked us and we defended and we killed Iraqi soldiers because they wanted to capture our land!
Be sure that if Jews wouldn't capture their lands Muslims wouldn't hate them or trying to kill them...!
What about the Hadith then?
In the Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad, he said, "Judgment day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims will kill the Jews, and then the Jews will hide behind stones or trees, and the stone or the tree will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him - except for the Gharqad, which is a tree of the Jews."
This seems pretty clear. This is from the Prophet Muhammad. Last time I checked he was the perfect Muslim to be emulated in life. Are you saying that he doesn't mean what it certainly sounds like he means. Or are you doubting the authenticity of the Hadith?
Or some screen caps from Islam-QA
http://www.americansagainsthate.org/Islam-QA.htm
Koran 5:51
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
That totally sounds like Muslims and Jews would be getting along if not for the State of Israel.
The Koran says a hell of a lot more than "Muslims should defend and only defend themself if a stranger attack them". I have read it, it's pretty clear what should happen to non believers. Here is one Sura:
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” (Koran 9:29).
i really do doubt the authenticity of the Hadith!!!!!!! I've never heard from any where that Mohammad said these words...! about Koran i couldn't open the link u gave me but i myself never read any where in QorAn to say such things...i even read somwehere that KorAn said never try to fight with other poeple of other religions unless they tried to hurt u...But there are lots of prediction of future in QorAn too and maybe this is one of them!
The Sura numbers are right there, 5:51 and 9:29. Just open up your Koran and read them.
Here is 5:51 from the USC Koran translations, in 3 major translations:005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
Here is 9:29
009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Book 41 Number 6985 Sahih Bukhari
http://www.muslimaccess.com/sunnah/hadeeth/muslim/041.html
This is a canonical Hadith.
It says the People of book are friend...! this is the point...! poeple of book contanis Jews and christians...! this one is for a special situation and that is when you were under attack by them...!
9:29 is pretty clearly saying to either fight, convert, or dhimmify the those who do not believe in Allah.
5:51 is pretty clear in what it says as well.
As is the Hadith from Bukhari. You can try and quantify if you want, but you are grasping at straws. There is a long history of the Muslim religion not being kind to infidels and enforcing the Jizya tax.
Also, "being attacked" is very easily gotten around as you could say that the Western society is "attacking" the Muslim society by spreading it's way of life, which is pretty much incompatible with Sharia law.
Christians are not that kind to Jews (or any other religion) either The Father of the protestant church wrote a paper titled "On the Jews and Their Lies"
The bible is also filled with murder those that do not believe;
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
And many more. Tell me how does this help?
Does pointing out that other groups are bad make one group better? Kind of like "Well everyone is beating up old people, so beating up old people is OK".
Hm, what part did you (choose to) miss, let me try it one more time. Both are wrong but Israel is the bigger bad guy!
I guess we have to agree to disagree. We just have different measuring sticks on this one.
I guess we do, I call every murder equally wrong. As far as I know the rate is 80 Palestinians for every Israeli. That is the measuring stick I use.
Fair Enough. I use intent as my measuring stick. If Hamas was capable, they would kill every Jew in Israel. Man, Woman, or Child. At least Israel doesn't want to do that to the Palestinians. (Because if they did want to, they could.)
You are capable of reading minds now, sounds like a great party trick.
You don't have to read minds to know what Hamas wants to do. They write it down in their charter, and they talk about it on TV shows.
I think it's funny how you always defend Islam by saying "Christianity is bad too". Do you even realize that is not a defense?
I think it is funny that you claim the Koran makes it impossible for Muslims to look at Christians and Jews in a reasonable manner, but do not think the bible does the same or worse. If most Christians can get by those parts in the bible why do you assume followers of other religions can not? You are measuring with two different yardsticks.
Where did I say that? Make some threads about Christian radicals killing people on a regular basis, and I promise to bash those people as well.
The reason I assume followers of Islam cannot is because the Bible is fundamentally different from the Koran. One is an interpretation of messages and stories from God written by man, and the other is a book written by God himself.
Well we have seen what assumptions can do.
Former Muslim Ayaan Hirsi Ali thought the same thing until 9/11. Then she heard the things that Al Qaeda was saying, and how they were justifying the things they do with verses from the Koran. Ayaan at first thought they must be lying, but then she started actually reading the Koran as opposed to just memorizing it by rote. And she looked up the verses that Al Qaeda was citing. She then saw that they spoke the truth, everything they did was justified in the Koran, and she renounced Islam. You can read all about her realization in "Infidel". You can also read Ibn Warraqs "Why I am not a Muslim" to learn the actual truth behind Islam's religion,
It doesn't hurt me, and I don't hate Palestinians.
No devout Muslim (I'm assuming you are Muslim) can look at Israel and the Jews in a completely reasonable manner. The Koran/hadith more or less make the impossible. You cannot see it through an eye not tainted by your holy books.
In the Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad, he said, "Judgment day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims will kill the Jews, and then the Jews will hide behind stones or trees, and the stone or the tree will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him - except for the Gharqad, which is a tree of the Jews."
I actually don't understand a word of what you said because am NOT a muslim. Am a christian Jordanian girl. All what is moving me is the injustice that am seeing.
Its sad how you always predict that each defender is an untruthful Muslim.
Anyways, I hope that you will judge with your humanity and not your hatred toward any religion.
Fair enough, we just see different injustices. I see Hamas firing rockets at Civilians, hiding weapons caches in Mosques, and sending Suicide Bombers to Dance clubs as the biggest problems. You see Israel attempting to stop them from doing that as the problem.
Jumping to conclusions?
Jordan Religious Demographics:
Religions: Muslim (Sunni) 94%, Christian 5% (majority Greek Orthodox, but some Greek and Roman Catholics, Syrian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, and Protestant denominations), other 1% (several small Shi'a Muslim and Druze populations) (2001 est.)
19-1 that I was right. Seems like a reasonable conclusion to jump to.
Seemed like that at the time eh? Interesting thing is that we have a Jordanian Christian condemning the Israeli attitude towards Palestinians. That is quite remarkable specially that it is only 27 years after the Sabra and Shatila massacres.
It's not remarkable at all. She has Jordanian Media coverage which is no doubt very biased against Jews and Israel. It probably completely failed to mention the Palestinians that Hamas executed in the street the other day as "traitors".
It's funny how you blame the media for my opinion or maybe for all who are against you, I will not get affected by media because I know that at the end it's all politics and interests. I will only be affected by the truth.
As well, you are predicting that am only watching Arab media and get brain washed by others!! Wake up, we are living in the same world you are!! We are all well educated & we all have satellites, internet and we watch cnn, bbc,.... so stop giving excuses. Maybe my life is more open than yours!!!
Am not with anyone am with the civilians that are dying and the world is watching.
So you know the truth, but you don't get it from the Media. Are you in Israel, or Palestine? The only person actually in the thick of it in this thread clearly agrees with Israel. Everyone else has nothing but Media to go with. The world always wants to report on what Israel is doing. Did you see the report on the Palestinians that Hamas massacred as traitors in the street the other day? Probably not. You know why, because the media doesn't want to report that, it isn't nearly as enticing as big bad Israel picking on the Palestinians.
Hmm.. maybe because Israel is banning foreign journalists access to Gaza!?!?
I suppose they could let them into the WAR ZONE. But then they would just get complaints if any of them die from attacks in A WAR ZONE.
Letting reporters into an area you are attacking is a stupid ass idea.
As proven by USA doing it in several wars?
US reporters literally got a hike from humvees to the front lines during the Iraq war
It was stupid and irresponsible for the US to allow it as well. In some cases reporters have revealed strategic information. War is ugly, that's just a fact.
One difference is that the US is so powerful that they can weather some more bad press. Israel lets in some reporters and they die (either by their hand, or Hamas') and it makes front page news in most countries.
Nonsense, the world needs someone to report from the frontline, someone that can tell the world what Israel is doing to the Gaza people.
You mean stuff like this:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3653238,00.html
We come across a local family in one of the buildings. Grandparents, a few young parents, some children and a few toddlers. Sitting on a rug, their legs are covered in blankets and two soldiers are standing guard nearby. "What about them?" I ask. "They're free to go if they want to, but they don't want to," said Eilon Perry, Givati's operations officer. "They informed us they would be staying in the house and we have no choice but to accept that."
The family suddenly notices the cameras, and immediately, the expression on their faces changes. "We have no food," they say in Arabic, as one of the youngsters suggests we interview him in English about their plight. Givati troops are extremely concerned about being portrayed as abusing innocent civilians. Perry points to a stack of canned goods, water bottles and other provisions. "We provided some of that and they cook and eat quite well," he said. The Palestinians seem to understand him and one of them smiles. It's a war – they had to try.
I mean exactly stuff like that.
All we get now is Palestinian and Israeli propaganda, we deserve independent 3rd source propaganda
lol nice.
And you don't think American news coverage is biased towards the Jews? Don't suggest other people are indoctrinated when you are yourself
Of course it is, but not as much as Hamas TV, or Al Jazeera are against the Jews. Israel gets bashed by a good portion of our media. They get based by all Islamic Media.
hey Dandan...i really don't know what to say...maybe it's because my english is not very good...but i hope u and i can chat with each other...maybe after my exams get over....because i'm too busy these days with the exams...:-D
hope to see peace every where!
The Jews...they came to "Israel" and killed the Moslems.
This is really the truth...after the world war II...they came there and started killing muslims!
This is the most oversimplified explanation I have ever heard. Then again you are a product of Iranian schools I would guess.
It's really just so simple eh? What about the long history of Muslims killing and subjugating Jews?