| If the 1,990-page House Health Care Bill becomes law, which of these outcomes will be of greatest concern to you? |
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If the 1,990-page House Health Care Bill becomes law, which of these outcomes will be of greatest concern to you?
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United States

All of the above.
That would be dreadful if Big Pharma would quit finding shit we don't need for problems they created. Drugs that kill people, BTw. No more Rezulin. No more Vioxx, Herpacetin, Fen Phen, Reglan, Advair, Bextra, Celebrex,...Zelnorm. No more of a thousand drugsw approved since Reagan made the FDA a creature of the pharmaceutical industry, and to hell with the American people.
No more purple pills that don't work any better than their predecessors being prescribed at four, five, six times the cost.
No more billion dollar research in how to put out the smae drug, altered only enough for a new patent.
Maybe even no more studies bought and paid for by drug companies to drive down the 'optimal' range for all kinds of indicators, so that EVERYONE needs to take cholesterol lowering drugs, blood pressure drugs, and other drugs every day for life.
Gee, think how much money we'd save.
Yeah, I'm gonna miss the good old days, when snake oil salesmen and patent medicine frauds ran our medical care.
Yeah
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Perhaps you should get back on your PMS medication! :-)
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I understand that you don't care about my health, but I'd rather have access to the drugs that are keeping me alive. And I resent overly protective people like you that cost me $2,800 per year in one medication alone.
One of my meds is widely available in other parts of the world for $450 per year, but because of abuse in the US and the actions of people like you bringing lawsuits, the FDA has limited access to everything but injections. (They cost $3,250 per year.) So thanks, but no thanks. I think I'm smart enough to decide these things on my own. I don't need the government to protect me from myself.
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[6 points] 2 years ago by deleted user ReplyThis comment has been moderated down. (Show Comment)
You're so naive. You actually think this bill has your (or my) health in mind? Sorry. It is all about widening government control... and lemmings like you are letting it happen.
I'll still do everything I can to limit the government takeover. The unintended consequences can be horrific.
The U.S. already spends way more tax money per person then Canada on health care and has worse results. But I want you guys to keep going just the way you are until it breaks or becomes better then any other system. In the mean time you guys function as a perfect example why "for profit health care" is worse then "socialized health care". Keep up the good work.
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[4 points] 2 years ago by deleted user ReplyIt's not over yet.
And I resent people like you who think it is OK for Big Pharma to kill people in the name of profits.
I win.
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And when the dust settles on this one, you will still be an idiot!
I win! :-)
Even if I believed your premise, any remedy is better than government take over. If the government takes it over, there are no remedies.
Huh? You just vote in a different government, it is that simple!
That's true of representatives, but not government employees.
I bet you change your tune real fast if you or someone you love dies because a pharmaceutical company lied on their application, cheated on their testing, and were approved by FDA. Or you could be lucky, and not be one of the many people for whom that is true. Or you could be ignorant. and just not know that is the reason.
Whether she cares about your health or not is immaterial. She cares greatly about her OWN health, however.
That is as it should be. However, as I shared before, Government regulation had a hand in killing my wife, so I'll fight as hard as I can to prevent that happening to others.
Insurance company regs for how a hospital treats their elderly patients had a hand in killing my father. I'll fight them as hard as I can to prevent that happening to others, too.
Accepted
Government regulation killed your wife?
Yep, As I said, "The US government limits transplants. This has the effect of delaying transplants. In my wife's case, she was on dialysis 4 1/2 years before being placed on the transplant list. We got the news the same week she first went into the hospital with bleeding into the brain caused by weakened artery walls because kidneys regulate proteins to affect tissue strength. In other words, because she was on dialysis so long, it gave time for her kidney disease to kill her. Her cause of death was listed as accidental head trauma. It was death by government regulation. Unlike if a private business caused this, I have no legal remedy for this tragedy."
I am truly sorry for your loss, but I can't find an example on-line where the U.S. government limits transplants. I always thought the limitations were because of the shortage of suitable donor organs.
Am I correct assuming your family did not have adequate health insurance and could not afford to pay for the operation and subsequent medication yourself?
That's not actually the way it works. Kidney transplants are paid 80% by Medicare. We had medigap insurance that would pay most of the other 20%. Medicare did not cover non-kidney related costs. Private insurance paid 80% of dialysis costs. We paid out between $120,000 and $130,000 out of pocket before it was all over. Money was not an immediate problem for us, but I can no longer retire without going to a much lower standard of living.
Technically, the government doesn't limit transplants. As you mentioned, there is a shortage of transplant organs. The government sets the standards about what transplants Medicare will pay for. It is all very reasonable that transplant organs should go in the patients without other major problems that are likely to kill them. It's reasonable for the transplant organs to go to those patients with the greatest likelihood of success. It is even arguable that they should go to parents who have children at home. Although I have some ideas about increasing transplant options, I agree that there has to be some kind of basis to decide who gets a transplant organ.
Medicare sets the requirements because they pay most of the bills. In 1992, it took a transplant team 6-8 weeks to meet Medicare requirements for a kidney transplant. In 2003-07, it took the same transplant team 189 weeks to meet the Medicare requirements for a kidney transplant. Now remember that this is just to get on the waiting list, not the time required to actually get a kidney once you are approved. We had no choice in how these requirements are met... none at all.
Some have suggested that it's one of the ways the government can save money. Transplants are very expensive and my wife died before she got one. Though I grant the possibility, I don't believe it in this case. I dealt with the transplant teams for years and from top to bottom, they were unfailingly professional, caring and excellent patient advocates. It's more likely to be a problem with the nature of medical bureaucracy. Efficiency is measured by whether a patient recovers and how fast a patient recovers. By requiring every test known to man and appointing people to audit every decision made, you CAN make the numbers go up. If you can make the numbers go up, you get to keep your job and maybe even move up in the organization. The head of Medicare gets to stand before congress and swear that they are getting more efficient and cost effective. After all, they have the numbers to prove it. The only little problem from my point of view is that people die waiting.
This fits into the national health care debate because it illistrates a perfectly reasonable expectation of what we can expect of national health insurance in the US. If there are unintended casualties, there is no way to fix it. If private contracts are gotten around, there is legal recourse. If you prove your case with private medical care, private companies can be forced to change or dissolve. With Medicare, it doesn't much matter what I can prove.
I can understand how frustrating this whole indecent must be for you and every one else in the situation, but is the answer to improve and/or expand medicaid or ban it? Something few people know is that here in Ontario we are allowed to go to other countries for operations and get full refunds from the government.
Still there are about 20,000 people on dialysis and only 1200 kidney transplants are performed each year. I would not sell my kidney, but I would consider donating one of them. -- http://www.kidney.on.ca/facingthefacts/
Thank you for your kind reply. You know, If there was a genuine bad guy in this, it might be easier. I don't know what will "fix" the issue. Bureaucratic regulation is an inherently inefficient way to protect society where time is important. As a general rule, having a larger regulatory body makes what you are trying to regulate safer. (Mostly because of more auditors) But it also kills innovation and efficiency. To put it in political terms, If a Conservative promotes less regulation in order to increase innovation and efficiency, they are accused of killing children. If a Liberal promotes more regulation and a larger government role, they are accused of Socialism. The ironic thing is, they are both right. But neither recognizes the fact that every method of dealing with a dangerous world has strengths and weaknesses. Neither can see the other's rational. They only see the extremists that demonize, lie, cheat and steal in order to promote their agenda. Neither has a perfect answer to the world's dangers.
I'll be the first to support more safety and security if Liberals will also support efficiency and innovation.
This is a link to an alternate organ transplant view.
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=511440
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Well stated, JW. Don't forget that you're dealing with some real kooks here.
Today's recall:
Hospira Issues Nationwide Voluntary Recall of Certain Lots of Liposyn[TM] and Propofol Products That May Contain Particulate Matter
There isn't a day that goes by without some kind of recall, often two.
This from the FDA subscription service.
That's caused by poor cleanliness (quality control) and is is part of the proper roll of the FDA. It has absolutely nothing to do with the FDA requiring enormously expensive and time consuming tests for drugs that are already in use and safe in other parts of the world.
That was just today's recall. There is one or more every day. And at least one drug every few weeks that needs relabeling for being more dangerous than was admitted when released. And about one year for a drug, widely prescribed, that is killing people. But by all means, let's keep up with the for-profit paradigm. It's not that many deaths, and it is an awful lot of money.
Prescription drugs are the fourth largest cause of death--and probably much higher, as frequently, if someone dies of a heart medication for example, they list the underlying reason for which the drug was prescribed as cause of death.
It's like listing 'broken leg' for cause of death if person dies of an antibiotic prescribed for an infection resulting from a compound fracture.
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[-6 points] 2 years ago by deleted user ReplyGood point
Even if what you say is true. There are legal remedies for the damages caused.
The US government limits transplants. This has the effect of delaying transplants. In my wife's case, she was on dialysis 4 1/2 years before being placed on the transplant list. We got the news the same week she first went into the hospital with bleeding into the brain caused by weakened artery walls because kidneys regulate proteins to affect tissue strength. In other words, because she was on dialysis so long, it gave time for her kidney disease to kill her. Her cause of death was listed as accidental head trauma. It was death by government regulation. Unlike if a private business caused this, I have no legal remedy for this tragedy.
I do have the right to fight tooth and nail against government takeover of the health care industry. And I will.
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[1 point] 2 years ago by deleted user ReplyThis so called "Health Care Bill" is not about our health at all,,it is all about government control. Does anyone actually think that the government can efficiently and effectively run something as large a our nations health care!!?? If passed, all of these answers will be true plus many more negative effects.
"run something as large a our nations health care"
Imagine if they were put in charge of the military/fire departments/police!
No but seriously every other industrialised nation have national health care, why shouldn't America be able to do it as well?
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[-6 points] 2 years ago by deleted user ReplyDoes the constitution say anything about firedepartments/police/military?
And i don't think you were complaining when bush raped some constitutional rights?
Actually, he was. Part of the problem here is that we started a federalist system here that gave 17 specific rights to the federal government. ALL other rights belonged to the states and cities. Starting in 1860, but mostly since WW1, the US federal government has taken over regulating more and more areas to the point where we have a national system. Our government started out similar to the EU and has ended up more like France.
When anybody pushes for less big government or says we ought to follow our constitution, that's what we are talking about.
So, yes, we screamed when Bush did it. The military is one of the original 17 areas given to the federal government. Fire departments and police departments are local operations.
Because it would threaten the very very very very very few people who are getting nearly one sixth of our GDP annually. Anyone who says different is lying --to themselves if no one else.
They are not getting the money. They are controlling it. You are for government controlling it. I understand that. It's not about the money, it's about the power. You don't believe in checks and balances; but believe in a benevolent government. Well I don't.
I think you need to reread what you have written. Surely you do not believe your elected government is out to harm you? I was worried under Bush with the warrantless wiretapping and I am still worried that it continues under Obama, not because I think either of them would harm me, but because I believe some people WILL abuse the systems.
Sure the government can run the health care system. They have done a great job with the retirement system. They have done a great job with the "Food and Drug Administration" as doggy is so happy to point out. The low income housing projects the government established are a model of affordable housing throughout the world. The infrastructure (roads and bridges) are probably the best in the world thanks to the government. The military is the epitome of efficiency. Our welfare system is so good millions of people come from foreign countries to share in our wealth. So how can you possibly even consider that the government that is so monetarily stable, ethical and accountable might screw up this simple little health care bill?
Actually, up until the Reagan administration, they DID do quite well. It was his determination to put the government at the service of the big corps rather than the average citizen that created the problems. Starting with Reagan's actions to hamstring the FDA to the benefit of Searle and Rumsfeld, its then-CEO--something he did on his SECOND DAY in office.
Your attempt at blaming the Reagan administration for the faults of the FDA falls a little short in my opinion. Regardless of what rule the Reagan administration may or may not have passed the Democrats had 8 years of Bill Clinton to attempt to correct any problems Reagan may have created. The Democrats have had control of the House and Senate for about the last 4 years and have had control of the House, Senate and a sitting President for the last year. So if you want to blame Reagan then you have to blame the Democrats as well for not fixing the problem. This is all a perfect illustration of exactly why I DONT want the government running MY health care. Its also a pretty good illustration of how liberals like to point the finger and blame other people for problems instead of actually fixing problems when they have an opportunity.
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[-6 points] 2 years ago by deleted user ReplyGovernment here seems to achieve better results for the patients then your companies and it does so far more efficiently.
No kidding. When I asked a Danish friend what would happen if she got ill over here, she told me that her country would fly her home and treat her. I wondered why they wouldn't just pay for treatment here, and she told me it was because the costs here were way too high for the poor care you got. And that was in the mid 1990s.
Governments all over the world have show that they can run it WAY more efficient and with better results then the system you guys run. So I have to ask you, what sort of control do you expect your elected government will impose that companies do not?
Any kind they want. This bill gives unelected bureaucrats authorization to run health care. There is no accountability, no recourse.
Over here the unelected bureaucrats report to the elected politicians, although I would like to see more transparency myself.
I guess this all boils down to trust. Who do you trust to provide your health care? Do you trust the evil private companies, or do you trust the evil government?
The free market allows companies to make a profit by providing you health care. Since there are more than one company in this business, these companies end up competing with each other. As long and the people have a choice, the companies will do their best to win their customers. If a company fails to provide adequate service, their customers will go to the competing company.
The government has no competition. They can use legislation to impose whatever price they want. This can work out great for the customers who pay for health care since the prices will be greatly reduced. However, this really hurts the companies who provide care. They don't receive profits, and often are not fully paid for the cost of doing business. This leads to cut backs. Some of the first things to get cut are research and development. This causes progress to slow. New drugs are not developed. Students are not motivated to become doctors, and those who are in the medical field become as helpful as the people at your local DMV.
We are going to get what we pay for. We can pay private companies (premiums, co-pays, etc.) and allow them to compete and innovate, or we can pay the government (taxes) and settle for stagnation.
I sure as shit don't trust people who make money off NOT treating me. You know, those altruistic types who care about nothing except the bottom line, and make sure that 25% of each health care dollar ends up in their pockets?
More half truths and lies. These answer your statements. "I sure as shit don't trust people who make money off NOT treating me" Your biggest lie - Companies can't make money by not treating you. The companies would collapse like Enron.
Lie #2, "You know, those altruistic types" - Altruism is not required for a for profit system.
Half truth, "25% of each health care dollar ends up in their pockets." The average health care company pays out 25% of their income for salaries and bonuses to health care professionals like doctors, nurses and lab techs. The largest companies have a 3% to 12.6% profit. That goes into the investor's pockets, not the company's.
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[2 points] 2 years ago by deleted user ReplyI should have qualified that by excluding monopolies. If you have a service company that doesn't provide service, the company will collapse. (except monopolies and government agencies.)
Correct...who is going to pay for insurance if that insurance never pays out to its policy holders?
And what insurance company is going to survive if they pay out all claims?
The best ones pay claims as stipulated in their contract. (policy) American Family and Allstate are poor payers. State Farm and Farm Bureau are much better payers. The poor payers have to be sued more often to get them to pay legitimate claims.
If its not possible for an insurance company to survive by paying out legitimate claims then please tell me how you expect a government to survive by paying out ALL claims?
I have never claimed that a government could afford to pay out all claims, so I think it is safe to assume we both agree that neither for profit health care nor socialized health care are even close to perfect.
The difference is that socialized health care has shown to give better overall results and at a lower cost. For that reason alone I would want you guys to keep going the way you are, politicians the world over can use the U.S. as an example why for profit health care is not the easy solution capitalist make out it is.
You won't find it hard to believe that I think I'm right about potential for huge damage in US health care if the 1,990-page House Health Care Bill becomes law. You may be surprised to know that I agree that our costs are way out of line and Canada's are not. (In comparison)
In the Canadian system, what protects you from the dangers of a single payer system and the loss of checks and balances?
If most people are happy with your system in Canada and 82% of the people in the US don't want single payer, what are we missing?
I suggest you have a look at the differences (and the similarities) for yourself. There are many models to chose from and I am not suggesting the Canadian system is the BEST way. You will probably find there is no perfect solution, people going through the system will have to be watchdogs and expose any wrongdoings.
I have worked in hospitals and I have seen the dedication the people have to their profession, so I do believe that we (all countries) do need whistle blower protection laws to allow the people in the system to expose any wrongdoings.
Experience shows that for profit health care is more expensive and less effective then universal health care. If we care for ALL our fellow citizens then we want universal coverage, if we do not care for ALL our fellow citizens, then for profit health care is the way to go. Big business suffers from the same administrative problems that governments do, but in the case of health care it seems that big business has higher (double) administrative overheads.
You guys (both Republicans and Democrats) are unwilling to make the DRASTIC changes that are needed. The current bill will improve things a little for the uninsured, but in the end you will have to change to a public option (providing you want universal coverage and make a dent in the 45,000 yearly deaths from lack of insurance)
You guys keep bickering like little children over things that should not be discussed as part of health care reform (like immigration and abortion) and not looking at the end goal (providing better health care to more people at a lower cost)
Please provide the objective source of your 45,000 death accusation. I presume it will also identify the number that are illegal aliens.
Sure, I apologize, I would have added that earlier if I had known it wasn't common knowledge. -- http://wordpress.asc.upenn.edu/2009/09/dying-from-lack-of-insurance/
Common knowledge? There is no direct causal link developed in this "study". It documents other "studies" where the numbers were 27,000; 22,000; 18,000 and 13,000 -- none of which estimate the number that are illegal aliens.
The "study" actually concludes that the deaths are attributed to "delaying or forgoing doctors' visits". My parents were well-insured and did the same thing. Would you conclude that they died from having insurance?